Posts : 26238 Points : 25065 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 34 Location : Admintown
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 22:01
Hail Treesmurf, our great informer!
JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15873 Points : 15039 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 30 Location : The Shibuya River
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Sun 5 Aug 2018 - 15:55
Crumpy Andy wrote:
Brawlout is down to a tenner, I said I'd bite around that price so I did, anyone up for picking it up?
Aye, I enjoyed what I played of that at the meetup, I'll plump for it at that price.
Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26238 Points : 25065 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 34 Location : Admintown
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 6 Aug 2018 - 20:21
Minit's going to be a thing on Thursday lads! I mean, it's going to be a thing I can't stand, since I don't like time management in videogames or indeed in the real world at the best of (yes) times; but at the same time it's quirky and I like it when people buy and enjoy quirky stuff.
masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23804 Points : 24195 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 6 Aug 2018 - 20:23
Not a great week to come out with Dead Cells, Flipping Death and Overcooked 2 all being well received.
Jimbob Bargain Hunter
Posts : 4579 Points : 4605 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 41 Location : Milton Keynes
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Wed 8 Aug 2018 - 20:36
I want to buy the last (checks) 8 things listed in this post. I think Minit might be top of the list, though. I fear it's because it looks like an old thing...
Treesmurf Dry Metal Baby Princess
Posts : 4163 Points : 4165 Join date : 2013-01-17 Age : 34 Location : Manneh
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Fri 10 Aug 2018 - 0:51
I've played a bit of The Adventure Pals and first impressions are good, solid platforming and some very silly humour which has provided a few lols.
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Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26238 Points : 25065 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 34 Location : Admintown
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Sat 11 Aug 2018 - 8:09
Glad to hear it! Unfortunately (as so often happens) other things have since got in my way, but perhaps one to look out for in a sale.
Iconoclasts has gone from not getting a recommendation (mostly through the main character not feeling as fun to control as the Knight) to getting a recommendation (mostly through the writing being genuinely interesting) thus far. The difficulty appears to be ramping up too, although I think the boss that killed me may have been more due to my own stupidity than anything else. Anyway, it has adjustable difficulty: perhaps pick the highest setting?
masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23804 Points : 24195 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Wed 15 Aug 2018 - 17:55
For its 5th Anniversary Gone Home is coming to Switch, I very much feel it's worth a download if you're interested in walking sims remotely.
JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15873 Points : 15039 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 30 Location : The Shibuya River
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Wed 15 Aug 2018 - 22:31
I liked Gone Home. It was wonderfully atmospheric and didn't overstay its welcome like some games in its style. Worth a look, for sure.
Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26238 Points : 25065 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 34 Location : Admintown
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Thu 16 Aug 2018 - 20:19
I keep getting it confused with Edith Finch in my head. Sounds like I should play it... Is it long?
masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23804 Points : 24195 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Thu 16 Aug 2018 - 20:34
You can beat it under a 1min but if you play properly maybe 2hrs tops.
JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15873 Points : 15039 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 30 Location : The Shibuya River
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Thu 16 Aug 2018 - 21:23
Balladeer wrote:
I keep getting it confused with Edith Finch in my head. Sounds like I should play it... Is it long?
Nah, not long at all. I rinsed the whole game including its optional trophies in a few hours.
masofdas wrote:
You can beat it under a 1min
That was one of the trophies for the game - you had to be so precise to get it done in time!
masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23804 Points : 24195 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Thu 16 Aug 2018 - 21:36
I tried getting it on both PS4 and Xbox One, the quickest I could do is 1min 15secs.
On Xbox One if you look at my achievements it says I've beaten the game but I did only play it for that amount of time, I just want the 100g as I wanted to beat a mate in the achievement rankings for the month.
The_Jaster Din
Posts : 11890 Points : 11982 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Underground Corpse Pile.
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 14:13
So, anything in there take anyone's fancy?
masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23804 Points : 24195 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 16:29
Gardens Between which has been on my radar since PGW 2017 (I think), Bad North but would want to see reviews on that one first and Slay the Spire which looks like it might be up my street as I've been banging on about card games on Switch for ages but not quite what I wanted as I was thinking more Pokemon TCG, MTG, Hearthstone, Gwent etc
I think Morphies Law is meant to be the big game out of that showcase but looks odd, if it's cheap and a bunch are picking it up then I could go for it.
JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15873 Points : 15039 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 30 Location : The Shibuya River
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 16:45
Night Call looked ace! That's definitely getting a look whenever it launches. I'm a sucker for a noir art style and it looks like it's going to weave a gripping yarn, so count me in.
Beyond that, I'm firmly in the "waiting for more news on Wargroove" camp.
The_Jaster Din
Posts : 11890 Points : 11982 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Underground Corpse Pile.
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 17:12
Those are good picks there and I have to say that it was Windjammers and the announcement of a sequel that was the big focus for me. always heard great things about this game and I'm quite excited for when the first one launches on October 23rd.
Aside from that the games that looked interesting to me were:
Monster Boy Bad North Moonlighter Children of Morta
Jimbob Bargain Hunter
Posts : 4579 Points : 4605 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 41 Location : Milton Keynes
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 20:28
I live-commented to myself. Uh...
Random thoughts:
Yay!
Monster Boy - I do have trouble remembering which one is this and which one is Wonder Boy III Children of Morta - I don't know what the f***'s going on in that trailer, but I bleddy love it Baba is You - You absolutely clever bastards. You absolutely clever bastards. You absolutely clever bastards.
Maybe
The Gardens Between - I likes me some puzzles, but... looks a bit messy Streets of Rogue - I know that Procedural Generation is a contentious issue (!) - but I'd much rather play a game like this with friends, knowing it's going to be different each time Bad North - I know that Procedural Generation is a contentious issue (!) - but I think that this sort of game works better randomly-generated. Trying to get through all the levels of Settlers games was a chore. Windjammers - I didn't have any love for this the first time round, but I know it's supposed to be a big deal. Windjammers 2 - now with norks Prison Architect - I already has it. And it's not as good as... actually I've never installed it DAMN YOU STEAM SUMMER SALE. Token northern accent though.
No
Night Call - Game: "pick the right text option" Me: "uh?" Game: "You picked the wrong text option". Moonlighter - I heard that the shop bit's a bit limited. I guess there's only so much they can do. This War of Mine - Too depressing, dude. Everspace - I know that Procedural Generation is a contentious issue (!) - I don't think this looks like it's going to work. If you're going to do a space game like this, you've got No Man's Sky and Elite Dangerous to contend with. I'm out. Slay the Spire - someone said "cards". I know this is supposed to be good. But it's not for Jimbob. Terraia - I already has it. And it's not as good as Starbound. Morphies Law - this is just a mode from Timesplitters though. With Grim Fandango assets.
Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26238 Points : 25065 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 34 Location : Admintown
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 20:59
By the time I'd finished watching, I'd forgotten that near the beginning were three games I found pretty interesting. Night Call strokes my Hotel Dusk gland (which is I think what Jay was trying to say, only... stickier ), Wonder Boy looked like it had some nice platforming action although the accompanying song was mince, and The Gardens Between might have weird unfolding puzzle levels of the Gorogoa vibe that will go down a storm if it lasts a bit longer... or it might be bobbins. I'll wait for the reviews on that one.
Oh wait: Jimbob also mentioned Baba is You! Which I was almost put off by by the nauseating-as-feck voiceover lady. But not quite. Maybe...
Sadly I was then deluged in games I had no-to-little interest in, and I want to talk about a common theme of many of them. (Not Murphy's Law: I thought it looked pretty interesting, and it once again makes me sad I have no interest in online shootybangs.) I'm talking about procedural generation. There were a lot of roguelikes, games with roguelike elements in ('roguelites'), or... Terraria, and there's definitely been an upsurge in such games on the eShop; so I think this is a good place to spew my guts.
Jimbob wrote:
I know that Procedural Generation is a contentious issue (!)...
Naaaaaaaaah:
From an indie's point of view, I see the appeal of roguelikes and roguelites. You don't have the time and budget to spend forever making huge games (mostly), so corners must be cut. Struggling with graphics? Go for sprites rather than trying to make polygons look smooth. Soundtrack? Chiptunes sound more authentic than MIDI and are cheaper than an orchestra. Playtime? Boost the difficulty, or change the game each time slightly to encourage replayability Level design? Make some tiles, then let an algorithm rearrange them. Some of these are no doubt the developer's own decisions, but there's no denying that these options allow other developers to spend less time/money/effort on the areas that matter less to them, and more on what they really want to do with a game.
But.
Level and world design has always been the most important thing in games to me. When I was a child, I drew Mario Kart tracks and made my own Mario levels. When I was a teenager, I mapped out worlds for my own JRPGs. Now, I delight in the nuances of level design. The knowledge that someone has put this piece of level furniture there for a purpose, be that gameplay, aesthetic, or atmospheric, makes me appreciate these levels. A person placed that object: it has a purpose next to its fellows that was clearly defined in someone's head (in any game worth playing, that is).
Exploring a world that I can believe is a world, exploring a level that's clever and intricate, means more to me than combat systems, or plots, or growing numbers. Let me learn that level, let me work out how its pieces fall into place, how they interact with each other. Let me nod with familiarity as I pass a landmark in a Zelda, smile as I open a route in Hollow Knight and in doing so link halls I know with those I don't, gape in awe as Celeste matches music and level furniture expertly.
So for me, to cut corners on that is unforgiveable. To leave the most important facet of gaming (in my opinion) up to chance? Take a hike mate.
Even if it's not cutting corners in all cases, even if the algorithm has been much tinkered with, I firmly believe that a level designed by a (good) designer can still beat one designed by an algorithm. Oh, in some places you won't notice the difference, or it'll be too subtle to see. A random supply jar in a roguelike may have a great deal in common with a jar placed for aesthetic reasons in a Zelda dungeon, or precisely spaced to dole out health at the right rates. But in some places - like when you learn a new move or technique in a well-designed game, and are shepherded through more and more complex ways to use it until you don't recognise you're being shepherded any more - I just don't think a computer can consistently have the advantage.
There's also difficulty. A well designed level in a good game may be ball-bustingly tough (I mentioned Celeste earlier), but it will always be doable. You'll always be meant to be able to tackle it. You'll never feel like the RNG screwed you over. This is a secondary concern to the above though, far secondary.
There are some roguelik/tes that mix the two, and those I can understand more. American Redneck springs to mind, which apparently has hand-made rooms arranged randomly in a pyramid, each being a distinct level. That I can get, even if that removes the level progression and ability to ramp up the challenge, sense of accomplishment, ambience, or feeling of importance as you progress through the quest... okay it's still not the best. But the smaller those handmade 'tiles' get, the less likely it is the level they make up will be in any way remarkable or noteworthy.
So too, in my opinion, the game.
Fair enough if level design doesn't mean that much to you. Fair enough, I suppose (I struggle with this one), if you think an impressive algorithm is as worthy of praise as an impressive hand-crafted level. Me, I'm sick of the roguelike boom. While there are definitely enough non-procedural games around (you win this round Jas, especially with the recent Hat in Time for Switch announcement ), every game where a designer chooses randomisation and algorithms over proper thought-out level design is a game that could, or should, have had levels you'll actually remember.
This should have been a Gintendo piece, shouldn't it.
Phew! I honestly am not as drum-bangy about this as it looks like from the above, or as I was at the end of being bored by the showcase. TL;DR: HANDMADE LEVEL DESIGN GOOD, MACHINE LEVEL DESIGN BAD. ME NO LIKE MACHINES. KILL ALL MACHINES.
Last edited by Balladeer on Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 21:31; edited 2 times in total
Rum Disciple of Greener
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Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Mon 20 Aug 2018 - 21:16
I haven't watched the indie video (yet... yet? I might watch it, I might not. You're not the boss of me!). I just came here to say that I bought Tumblestone from the Switch eShop because I tried the demo, though it was pretty good, and it's on sale (£3.47 instead of £11.99). Looks a little bit Flash-gamey but there seems to be a metric bum-tonne of content, and the actual puzzler mechanics are solid and addictive. I recommend giving it a bash - you can play the first 30 puzzles on the demo - but be warned, you don't seem to be able to carry over the demo save, so you'll have to do 'em again.
The Cappuccino Kid Lumen Sage
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Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Tue 21 Aug 2018 - 10:27
I've liked the look of Morphie's Law for a while now, but the first impressions from the folk that have downloaded it already is that it's unfinished and very laggy. Other than that, Monster Boy interested me the most, though I've not got my arse in gear and played last year's Wonderboy yet, so that should probably come first.
I couldn't make sense of Tumblestone on that eShop demo sadly.
masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23804 Points : 24195 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Tue 21 Aug 2018 - 19:31
Jimbob wrote:
Monster Boy - I do have trouble remembering which one is this and which one is Wonder Boy III
It is a semi-sequel to Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap and lasts year Wonder Boy is a remake of Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap.
Night Call might be up my street then
JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15873 Points : 15039 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 30 Location : The Shibuya River
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Tue 21 Aug 2018 - 22:40
In regards to Balla and Jim's mentions of roguelites, I'm a fan!
About Balla's point, anyone else can respond if they care:
The genre lends itself really well to replayability which means I get a lot of bang for my bang. It's what I'd class as "easy gaming" - nothing that's going to light my world on fire, but something I can fire up for a run or two and be happy with that. As such, procedurally generated worlds are a necessity for that genre as without that it'd grow dull pretty quickly having to traverse the same meticulously designed rooms. There's a thrill in wondering what items you'll find this time or what boss will be lurking behind that door on each run. It keeps you on your toes as well - even after countless runs, you might come across a room layout you've never encountered before that forces you to adjust how you play. It's great.
And of course you won't find the world as familiar as those games you listed - that's by design of the genre! It'd be ludicrous for Zelda or Celeste or a Mario game to be procedurally generated because they don't need to be. A roguelite needs to keeps things fresh as listed above.
You can't blame indie devs for utilising procedural generation either as a money-saving enterprise. I don't think it's fair pointing the finger at cost cutting either considering the sheer number of combinations of levels you could have as part of procedural generation and as a consequence, the number of bugs that might pop up. An indie dev hand-designing their games will likely run across the majority of glitches but, using the Isaac devs as an example, some devs will be working literally years after the initial release on obscure bug fixes because one player ran across a combination that made it impossible to proceed so the devs need to hot-fix that to stop that happening for anybody else.
It's almost coming across as an assumption on your part that a dev just presses a button and out splurges a game from the game machine algorithm. There's a huge amount of work that goes into making sure the generation works, coupled with the character/enemy/room designs, music, the actual gameplay itself... But regardless, that's not something that's impressive to you as you mentioned anyway, so that point might be falling on deaf ears.
Ultimately, it comes down to how you like to game, and as you mentioned you like to have a hand-crafted experience. I do too. But I can appreciate a good rogue-lite for what it is as well.
Anyway, if you want to point the finger anywhere, blame Minecraft.
The_Jaster Din
Posts : 11890 Points : 11982 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Underground Corpse Pile.
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Tue 21 Aug 2018 - 23:14
Jay wrote:
The genre lends itself really well to replayability which means I get a lot of bang for my bang. It's what I'd class as "easy gaming" - nothing that's going to light my world on fire, but something I can fire up for a run or two and be happy with that. As such, procedurally generated worlds are a necessity for that genre as without that it'd grow dull pretty quickly having to traverse the same meticulously designed rooms. There's a thrill in wondering what items you'll find this time or what boss will be lurking behind that door on each run. It keeps you on your toes as well - even after countless runs, you might come across a room layout you've never encountered before that forces you to adjust how you play. It's great.
The part in bold is why I like them as well and they also remind me of older games where you often learn and get better through repetition, except you're not just thrown back to the start of the game with that harsh lesson as you probably unlocked something on top of that which makes them even more rewarding to play. I love hand crafted worlds in games too - this should be obvious when some of my favourite games of all time are BotW, Dark Souls and Super Metroid but I also love figuring out the gameplay intricacies of a rogue-like/lite etc and that everyone can approach/play them in different ways.
Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26238 Points : 25065 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 34 Location : Admintown
Subject: Re: Nintendo Switch eShop Thread Wed 22 Aug 2018 - 14:57
Granular feedback time!
JayMoyles wrote:
In regards to Balla and Jim's mentions of roguelites, I'm a fan!
GET THE HELL OUT
Und so weiter:
JayMoyles wrote:
The genre lends itself really well to replayability which means I get a lot of bang for my bang. It's what I'd class as "easy gaming" - nothing that's going to light my world on fire, but something I can fire up for a run or two and be happy with that. As such, procedurally generated worlds are a necessity for that genre as without that it'd grow dull pretty quickly having to traverse the same meticulously designed rooms. There's a thrill in wondering what items you'll find this time or what boss will be lurking behind that door on each run. It keeps you on your toes as well - even after countless runs, you might come across a room layout you've never encountered before that forces you to adjust how you play. It's great.
Oh of course, I even said as much right at the start of my shpiel (talking about longevity more generally); and the fact that I generally don't replay games probably doesn't help how I view the genre. It's just... it's quantity over quality, isn't it? The tiles may form into 1,000 levels where they'd normally create five, but of those 1,000 only two might be absolute classics, and you'll never play them again.
JayMoyles wrote:
And of course you won't find the world as familiar as those games you listed - that's by design of the genre! It'd be ludicrous for Zelda or Celeste or a Mario game to be procedurally generated because they don't need to be. A roguelite needs to keeps things fresh as listed above.
I'm reading a tacit admission that real classics will never be procedurally generated.
JayMoyles wrote:
You can't blame indie devs for utilising procedural generation either as a money-saving enterprise. I don't think it's fair pointing the finger at cost cutting either considering the sheer number of combinations of levels you could have as part of procedural generation and as a consequence, the number of bugs that might pop up. An indie dev hand-designing their games will likely run across the majority of glitches but, using the Isaac devs as an example, some devs will be working literally years after the initial release on obscure bug fixes because one player ran across a combination that made it impossible to proceed so the devs need to hot-fix that to stop that happening for anybody else.
Fair play, I didn't consider bug-testing. I do wonder whether bug-testing (bar the post-launch patches) really takes as long as level design, but I've got no way of telling. It certainly requires a heck of a lot less talent and imagination.
JayMoyles wrote:
It's almost coming across as an assumption on your part that a dev just presses a button and out splurges a game from the game machine algorithm. There's a huge amount of work that goes into making sure the generation works, coupled with the character/enemy/room designs, music, the actual gameplay itself... But regardless, that's not something that's impressive to you as you mentioned anyway, so that point might be falling on deaf ears.
I think it's a deeply inferior talent, I'll be honest. Mucking around with algorithms to randomise levels decently (because really well isn't really an option in randomisation), compared to designing levels really well. It's like comparing art with mass-production, the works of Michaelangelo with corporate logos, or if I'm feeling a bit kinder then Warhol. (That said, if any algorithm-fiddlers are reading this, or any bug testers, I think they're both far superior talents to being an insurance actuary.)
JayMoyles wrote:
Ultimately, it comes down to how you like to game, and as you mentioned you like to have a hand-crafted experience. I do too. But I can appreciate a good rogue-lite for what it is as well.
Fair enough, it is what matters to different people, and if you can appreciate both you're in the best place. If you (slash I) place level design above basically all other gaming aspects, though, it's hard to appreciate a game that pushes that into the background.
JayMoyles wrote:
Anyway, if you want to point the finger anywhere, blame Minecraft.
Forever and always.
The_Jaster wrote:
The part in bold is why I like them as well and they also remind me of older games where you often learn and get better through repetition, except you're not just thrown back to the start of the game with that harsh lesson as you probably unlocked something on top of that which makes them even more rewarding to play.
See, especially following my playthrough of Hollow Knight, I also really like that sort of thing! And the core roguelike experience, that of dying and coming back with something extra, is actually a pretty good one. I think I might really enjoy a roguelike without the randomised level design - I think it'd have to come from a non-indie developer though, to make sure there's enough content to get through to stay fresh (and not get cooked and stay off the hook) despite the the set levels. It would be worth it though.
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Sat 4 Aug 2018 - 22:01
), Wonder Boy looked like it had some nice platforming action although the accompanying song was mince, and The Gardens Between might have weird unfolding puzzle levels of the Gorogoa vibe that will go down a storm if it lasts a bit longer... or it might be bobbins. I'll wait for the reviews on that one.
), every game where a designer chooses randomisation and algorithms over proper thought-out level design is a game that could, or should, have had levels you'll actually remember.
