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 What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)

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Muss
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gjones
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 21 Sep 2021 - 12:52

I'd like to see Mario give the space travel and jet-setting a rest, and have a remake of Mario 64 but expand it. The Mushroom Kingdom is a location that I feel Nintendo explores more in stuff like Paper Mario, but it would be great to have that as a hub world with all sorts of levels attached to it.
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The Cappuccino Kid
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 21 Sep 2021 - 14:44

I started typing my response out to this “What’s Next…” question yesterday, but I deleted it before posting because it’s an absolute belter of a question and it’s too hard to answer when you’ve got a stoater of a hangover. I wouldn’t say “least of all us are qualified to talk about this” either, but I get what Buskalilly is saying.

All the same, whether it’s Super Mario Odyssey 2, Super Mario Galaxy 3, Super Mario 3D World 2 or some sort of hybrid between Super Mario Sunshine and True Crime: Streets of LA, one thing’s for sure: it’ll be peerless 3D platforming that at it’s worst will be a bawhai away from perfection. 3D Mario is totally a series that I trust Nintendo with, and I’m certain they’d give me something I wanted (whether I knew what it was or not).
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Buskalilly
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 21 Sep 2021 - 16:08

Hyperbole (/haɪˈpɜːrbəli/) (adjective form hyperbolic) is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. In rhetoric, it is also sometimes known as auxesis (literally 'growth'). In poetry and oratory, it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions. As a figure of speech, it is usually not meant to be taken literally.
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OrangeRakoon
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 21 Sep 2021 - 17:04

@Buskalilly wrote:
What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 Amazing-everything-you-just-said-was-wrong-gif-1

Laughing I knew that wouldn't get a good reaction! (I stand by it though - Mario Odyssey plays fantastically but I think it's the character control that elevates it much more than the level design. Great variety, but lots of empty space. Sunshine meanwhile doesn't even control well...)

@The Cappuccino Kid wrote:
some sort of hybrid between Super Mario Sunshine and True Crime: Streets of LA

Streets of New Donk City
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Balladeer
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyWed 22 Sep 2021 - 20:02

I get where Buska's coming from (hyperbole aside) about the best Mario games being things that we didn't even know we wanted... but I'm not sure I agree.  Part of that is because, sadly, I disagree that 'at its worst [it] will be a bawhair away from perfection'.  I could pretend that started with 3D Land, which I really wasn't as keen on as basically anybody else - but it didn't, it started with me being stroppy about Galaxy not being exploratory in nature.  While I loved the stuff Odyssey did that I didn't expect, like Cappy and the way almost every kingdom could've come from a completely different game, it was the stuff I knew I wanted - a return to exploratory Mario - that punted it to my Second Game of All Time slot.  

@gjones wrote:
I'd like to see Mario give the space travel and jet-setting a rest, and have a remake of Mario 64 but expand it. The Mushroom Kingdom is a location that I feel Nintendo explores more in stuff like Paper Mario, but it would be great to have that as a hub world with all sorts of levels attached to it.

Case in point actually: I would love a full remake of Mario 64.  I would love it if they took the exact same worlds, but expanded and added to them, and modernised Mario and the camera.  I've loved the idea since I was nine or so, although I wouldn't suggest Nintendo take any of Mini-Balla's ideas for worlds.*  Would it provide the same level of unidentifiable magic that other 3D Marios have?  Probably not... but yet I have faith in Nintendo, to maybe slip in a completely new mechanic.  And even if they don't, it would still be incredible.  Imagine Bob-Omb's Mountain, but it properly stretches into the sky. Love

*I remember Mini-Balla suggesting a Bob-Omb Battlefield that's been devastated by Bob-Omb warfare, all the greenery blown to smithereens, with fortifications and bare earth everywhere in sight.  This is an example of why Mini-Balla should never be listened to.
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Muss
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyThu 23 Sep 2021 - 12:50

I want to see an open-world Mario set in a world devastated by Bob-Omb warfare. You boomers have had your colourful, whimsical, magical Mario games forever now. Make way for a gritty, brown, FPS Mario. Also make it available on Xbox and PC because the Switch isn't powerful enough.
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OrangeRakoon
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyThu 23 Sep 2021 - 14:24

If Mario Odyssey can have a Dark Souls world then a war ravaged FPScape is certainly doable!
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The Cappuccino Kid
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyThu 23 Sep 2021 - 16:38

I’d not be adverse to a Super Mario 64 remake, but the last time that Nintendo “took the exact same worlds but expanded and added to them”, we ended up with the worse Super Mario 64 DS. That game’s control scheme was undoubtedly it’s major drawback –and I know we’ll not have that problem again – but even then the extra content they added was just not at the standard of what was already in place. I’d prefer if they left Super Mario 64 in it’s permanent 1996 state.
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Buskalilly
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyFri 24 Sep 2021 - 4:15

As ever, Balla and I are diametrically opposed. I don't understand how we can agree on so much while simultaneously seeming to live on different planets . . .
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyFri 24 Sep 2021 - 21:43

@The Cappuccino Kid wrote:
I’d not be adverse to a Super Mario 64 remake, but the last time that Nintendo “took the exact same worlds but expanded and added to them”, we ended up with the worse Super Mario 64 DS. That game’s control scheme was undoubtedly it’s major drawback –and I know we’ll not have that problem again – but even then the extra content they added was just not at the standard of what was already in place. I’d prefer if they left Super Mario 64 in it’s permanent 1996 state.

When I say 'full remake' it would have to be just that.  Level pathways designed from scratch, stars changed about - more FFVII Remake than Link's Awakening Switch.  A re-envisioning perhaps, rather than a remake.  You're right that a lot (not all) of the new SM64DS bits didn't stand up against the original content, but I do wonder how much of that was being held back by the DS' power and what I presume would be a B-team working on the extra bits (and those controls).  Also: just the one playable character thank you very much.

@Buskalilly wrote:
As ever, Balla and I are diametrically opposed. I don't understand how we can agree on so much while simultaneously seeming to live on different planets . . .

I think the games we agree most on tend to do both: give us what we want and what we never knew we wanted!  Nintendo, in the right mood, can do both better than any other company.  In the wrong mood they give you Paper Mario Sticker Star.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptySat 25 Sep 2021 - 9:22

@Balladeer wrote:
When I say 'full remake' it would have to be just that.  Level pathways designed from scratch, stars changed about - more FFVII Remake than Link's Awakening Switch.  A re-envisioning perhaps, rather than a remake.

At this point . . . what would even make it a Mario 64 remake? All Mario games are basically the same plot wise, and they tend to visit similar worlds, so making it explicitly use all the same stuff from 64 just seems like hamstringing creativity for no reason.
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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptySat 25 Sep 2021 - 10:57

Ohh no does that mean you want the BotW of Mario games?
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptySat 25 Sep 2021 - 16:51

Everyone wants the BotW of Mario games. People who actually like playing video games do, anyway.

I think I get what yous guys is sayings about "like Mario 64 but bigger" - you want big areas of 3D Mario running and jumping, and exploring, but without perhaps a gimmick of space / too much water / being a cat / being other things.

But I agree, I don't think I have to worry about adding to my original post with any more "you know what I don't want" - it'll be in good hands.
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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptySat 25 Sep 2021 - 17:06

Whilst I'm sat here wanting Sunshine 2 or Odyssey 2.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyMon 27 Sep 2021 - 12:15

Cappy was an amazing addition but more for the expanded Mario moveset than for the transformations. Do we think those moves (like the hat dive) will be standard going forwards? I can't imagine not having them without it feeling like a step backwards.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyMon 27 Sep 2021 - 14:05

@masofdas wrote:
Ohh no does that mean you want the BotW of Mario games?

How does this relate to what people have said and what would it even mean, beyond "I want a really good game"?
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyMon 27 Sep 2021 - 21:38

@Buskalilly wrote:
At this point . . . what would even make it a Mario 64 remake? All Mario games are basically the same plot wise, and they tend to visit similar worlds, so making it explicitly use all the same stuff from 64 just seems like hamstringing creativity for no reason.

Honestly, a massive chunk of this wish is quite simply a very special kind of nostalgia for me. Mario 64 fits into a pretty unique slot where it's (IMO):
- A much loved game that has been my GoaT for a good long time;
- That doesn't hold up in the modern day (unlike, say, TTYD or Galaxy);
- That hasn't had a (good) remake or remaster or anything already (unlike, say, OoT);
- But still has some things that no game, or no Mario game anyway, after it has done quite as well, that a remake could build on (unlike, say, Super Mario Land).
By which I mean, power-ups like the Wing Cap and the Koopa Shell, which I still don't think have been bettered. World designs like a free-roaming ghost mansion, or the inside of a pyramid. World mechanics like Tick-Tock Clock's level manipulation, or Wet-Dry World's changing of the water (no game I've played has had the same mix of water-level changing and fluid underwater control).

I want to see what the people at Nintendo would make Bob-Omb's Battlefield, or Jolly Roger Bay, into today. The original was magic at the time but has aged to the point where I can't love it the same way I used to, but I think those world designs still have great cores and could be forged into something that a new generation of players could love. I'd adore that. I'd adore a new exploratory game too, natch.

I don't understand what Mas means either, but I want the Twilight Princess of Mario games.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyMon 27 Sep 2021 - 22:21

It was a joke about "All Mario games are basically the same"
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 28 Sep 2021 - 5:49

I can see what you're getting at Balla, and I think I would appreciate a game like that - grounded worlds where a small number of mechanics are writ large in each one - but I don't think tying it directly to 64 would be necessary. Could be a nice little bit of flavour/ marketing though.
@masofdas wrote:
It was a joke about "All Mario games are basically the same"
But I was referring to the story and setting, which is the part BotW basically didn't change Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyWed 29 Sep 2021 - 20:08

It absolutely wouldn't, but I would get massively and possibly indecently excited if it was. I have so much damn nostalgic love for that game.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyMon 18 Oct 2021 - 19:14

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Given that the last character in the second Fighter Pass released today, I thought it'd be interesting to have a look at Smash Bros.  It's a daunting task: how do you follow up the game that had everything and everyone?  But surely Nintendo won't want to let such a popular cash cow die, so: what might they do?  Will they try and one-up Ultimate?  Will they shrink things right down again, or go in a completely different direction with the fights?  Does it have to be a fighting game at all?  Could the spirit of Smash Bros. make it into a racer, or an RPG, or an MMO, or a sports game?  Probably!  Will it, though?  And would you want it to?  (And on a more banal level, if it was just a new fighting game, what would you want to see brought back?  Smash Run?  The SubSpace Emissary?  Adventure Mode?)

There's a subplot to this question, of course.  Sakurai has said he's retiring from Smash, and I think we can all agree that before anything else he should get a well-earned break.  After that, though: would you want him to return to Smash some day?  And if not, what else could he work on?

Last 5 games:
 

My thoughts:
 

Over to you!
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Muss
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 19 Oct 2021 - 11:02

Find somebody, or a small group of expert users, who can fill in for Sakurai. I mean, if the man wants to go then that's basically it right?

Otherwise, I don't really think there's much more to do. What would I change for a future game? Very little! I would take a remastered/deluxe version of this on the Switch 2 and be perfectly happy. Like MK8:D, for me it would be enough if they just added more tracks every now and then (Nintendo, plz), or in this case stages/fighters. I don't think the wheel needs to be reinvented, I don't think anything about the way the game handles needs a change, I'd be fine with the odd character being added now and then. And, in all honesty, I'd probably be a bit disappointed if the game didn't have a big cast. Pandora's box has been well and truly opened on that one imo.

Obviously a deluxe version with another wave of dlc won't happen, and I have no idea how much work goes into each character and how many people are needed to sustain that. In the end, I'm sure we'll just get another Smash game for whatever the next system is, one with a somewhat smaller cast to start with in all likelihood. I don't mind that as there is always someone fun to play as, but I will be disappointed not to see a good chunk of the guest characters returning. There are boring ones I don't care about, but there are some crackers in there as well.

I would like to see things like another subspace emissary I suppose. Ultimately I just want a netcode that's better than PowerPoint and for not much else to change. I have zero appetite for a groundbreaking new mechanic. Maybe I just lack imagination, but I'd rather they just made something else if that's a direction they want to go in. I also don't think it's true that we, or any diehards for that matter, will always have Smash Ultimate. Obviously the hardcore fans will find a way of making it live on. For me though the only existence Smash Ultimate will have is online with mates as I do not have a local group to play with. The game will only live as long as it has a place online (which explains why I haven't played it for a very long time). Once online support is phased out, or the next game comes around, I doubt I'll ever touch it again.
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The Cappuccino Kid
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 19 Oct 2021 - 17:50

After at least eight years of continuous development, there’s surely no prospect of a full-blown sequel to SSB Wii/3DS/Ultimate anytime soon, maybe not even this decade. Every Smash game so far was too massive of a sales success for Nintendo to just let the series take a break though. It’s not Wave Race, it’s not F-Zero, it’s not Punch-Out!!, it’s proper Triple-A stuff, and that’ll not happen. Up ahead and next gen, I think we’d agree that what’s likeliest is a port of Ultimate with all the DLC included as standard. Super Smash Bros. Ultimate Deluxe, right enough.

Sooner than that, what’s next? Hopefully Super Smash Bros. on N64 Online, and hopefully a re-release of Super Smash Bros. Melee. I’m not sure if I’d want a full-scale modern remake of Melee though. The newest Super Monkey Ball is proof that things like a game’s physics and momentum can be so delicate, imprecise to translate, and can ultimately be transformative in an imperfect and overall negative way if not handled with total care.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyWed 20 Oct 2021 - 19:59

Cheers for the responses fellas!  I'm not an online gamer at all, let alone an online Smasher, so take this with a pinch of salt.  Like Cappa says, I do think Smash Bros. Ultimate Deluxe is very likely.  It's also the route I'd least want them to take.

I think I've been pretty clear about my views on the padding out of the Switch release schedule with Wii U ports, but just in case: I could understand it in years one and two, but now they feel like stopgaps to plug holes in the schedule, even though those holes are understandable at the moment due to COVID.  A Wii U port basically means Nintendo has nothing else for that month, or couple of months.  I groan every time one's announced.  I do however understand the logic: the Wii U sold nothing, and there are a bunch of people out there who didn't have one.  For them, the ports make a lot of sense, and despite my personal views I wouldn't begrudge them that.  The Switch doesn't have that aspect.  It's sold tons, Ultimate has sold tons, and I'd balk even more at being sold the same old rope again so soon when so many already own the rope!  

What's more, I reckon it'd push back the chances of us seeing another new Smash game.  Following Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, a tremendous port that I like a lot, we haven't seen any sign of proper a Mario Kart on Switch (I don't count Live I'm afraid).  I reckon a lot of that is due to Nintendo thinking, 'Sod it, they've already got MK8D.'  While Smash could do with a break, I'd rather the people who would have worked on creating and balancing the new characters for Ultimate Deluxe, and the licensing budget used, to work on anything else, from starting work on the next Smash project up to and including Vroom in the night sky 2.  And if there were no new characters, it would feel like even more of a disappointing stopgap!

As for the whole 'Ultimate will disappear from online' thing, you've kind of said it yourself Muss: that's likely to be a result of the community before the servers.  You'd hope that the servers will last for at least another two generations anyway, and maybe by the time Switch 3 rolls around there'll be some point in rereleasing Ultimate.  Even if that didn't happen, the game would still be available, but online wouldn't be - but people searching for an online fix will mostly have moved onto other things anyway.  Ultimately (ha) though I can't relate to that desire for online to be maintained and improved, which obviously influences my viewpoint.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 6 EmptyTue 26 Oct 2021 - 0:09

I think the most important thing we need for Smash Bros is a big long break. I agree with Cappa and Muss that the game doesn't fundamentally need changing, but even so I think I'd be happiest if the next smash came a little later in the next console's life cycle, with a brand new team and built from the ground up. I want it to feel like a big deal when the next one is announced - and not just because idiots in Nintendo NY are screaming about it.

Most of all, I just want Sakurai to have a nice rest and then make something different Laughing
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