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 What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)

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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 9:08

That sounds f"in awful Buska, especially if the 3D games are like BotW (Please have dungeons BotW 2) and would ruin the Zelda series totally for me.

I'd be happy to get a Minish remake or new Four Swords especially if Nintendo can get the online working for some multiplayer.

The other thing maybe let Grezzo make their own Zelda game especially if Tantrus doing remasters of likes of Skyward Sword.
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Buskalilly
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 10:57

Of course you'd hate it Mas, I've seen you try to explore without directions!

Even then, I think it's pretty wild that you'd rather have remakes than something new. You can play Four Swords and Minish Cap right now on a 3DS or a Gamecube. Heck, if the disk is pricey, piracy on a Wii is ridiculously easy.

I'm not actually opposed to bigger dungeons, just the extreme linearity. I would take eight dungeons if they used the items/ powerset in a more interesting, creative and expressive way than literally giving me an item every time which I use for that dungeon and never again.
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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 12:41

Didn't say I'd prefer remakes, I much sooner have new Zelda games but are the main team going to go from BotW2 back to a 2D game? Seems more likely they'll give Grezzo a go at a remake and Links Awakening was pretty good that Minish like that would be cool if you're going to remake a 2D Zelda or give those team the opportunity to make a totally new 2D Zelda.

I'm not against exploring etc in the 3D Zeldas but if ALL Zeldas going forward like how BotW did it be 2D or 3D then Zelda would no longer be for me.

Also I own now expensive Four Swords on Cube.

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The_Jaster
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 13:22

I said this about the Link's Awakening on Switch.

Quote :
I loved the original and depending on the day you ask me it's either that or Minish Cap as my favourite 2D Zelda game but I just found returning to that old Zelda formula boring after getting my hands on something like BotW. Plus when you don't have the urge to return to a game after 3 or 4+ months something is up.

There's two main things I want from the next 2D Zelda game, and that's:

1. Freedom - I need to be able to explore in any direction so it actually feels like I'm on a proper adventure & not just checking off a list from A - Z. BotW is obviously the pinnacle of this in the series so it'd be great if they could pull that off in a 2D style, however.......


2. To be surprised - No remakes and not having to retread the same ground BotW has already laid would be good as well, just take a big massive risk that none of us expect.

----

Oh and let Capcom make it. Thumbs Up!
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gjones
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 14:27

I reckon a 2D Zelda that's just one big dungeon. Basically, Hollow Knight but in the Zelda universe (so delivered in actual 2D like Zelda II. It would flip the Zelda formula on its head once again.

A remake of Minish Cap would be ace though.

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Buskalilly
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 16:13

@masofdas wrote:
Didn't say I'd prefer remakes,


You literally said in your first post and then again in this post that you don't want what I said and do want remakes.
Quote :
Minish like that would be cool
Quote :
but if ALL Zeldas going forward like how BotW did it be 2D or 3D then Zelda would no longer be for me.
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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 16:26

Okay maybe this clearer

1. Brand New 2D Zelda in the traditional style
2. Remakes
3. Copying over BotW1 to 2D

So yeah prefer over a 2D BotW1 (I'm putting one as I might love BotW2) but I would like brand new traditional 2D Zelda over a remake.
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Buskalilly
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 16:33

Again, I don't actually want a 2D BotW (although that's just reminded me, they did make one when they were developing it) but I can't see them going back to super linear games.
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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 16:51

They don't have to be totally linear, when I mean traditional I'm talking dungeons, items to help, bosses etc
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The_Jaster
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyThu 15 Jul 2021 - 18:00

@gjones wrote:
I reckon a 2D Zelda that's just one big dungeon. Basically, Hollow Knight but in the Zelda universe (so delivered in actual 2D like Zelda II. It would flip the Zelda formula on its head once again.


That's actually a really neat idea.

@masofdas wrote:
They don't have to be totally linear, when I mean traditional I'm talking dungeons, items to help, bosses etc

I think most folk wouldn't mind dungeons coming back but when you add specific items only for those dungeons it starts to become linear by design, I'd personally really like to see how Nintendo would go about designing a more traditional dungeon without needing a specific item or even a set theme as well.
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Buskalilly
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyFri 16 Jul 2021 - 15:57

@masofdas wrote:
They don't have to be totally linear, when I mean traditional I'm talking dungeons, items to help, bosses etc

I'm more than happy to see dungeons return. I was talking about the original and that has dungeons.
I am hesitant to go back to the pure item + dungeon thing because that's been feeling tired for a while. There's a reason both SS and LBW tried to move away from it before we even got to BotW.
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masofdas
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyFri 16 Jul 2021 - 16:50

I'm thinking more like you can do frozen dungeon at anytime but be easier if you got the snowshoes or along those lines.
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The Cappuccino Kid
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySat 17 Jul 2021 - 8:30

@The_Jaster wrote:


There's two main things I want from the next 2D Zelda game, and that's:

1. Freedom - I need to be able to explore in any direction so it actually feels like I'm on a proper adventure & not just checking off a list from A - Z. BotW is obviously the pinnacle of this in the series so it'd be great if they could pull that off in a 2D style, however.......


2. To be surprised - No remakes and not having to retread the same ground BotW has already laid would be good as well, just take a big massive risk that none of us expect.


That's probably what I'd want too. Although I'd seen yesterday that the only 3D Zelda that doesn't have a remaster yet is Breath of the Wild. Could it be possible that one of the 2D Zeldas gets remade into 3D? It would be an interesting experiment at least, as something I don't think they've tried before.

I just don't want anything that's as plain and as dull a repeat as Link's Awakening on Switch.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySat 17 Jul 2021 - 18:20

@Buskalilly wrote:
In the shocker of the century, I think the polar opposite of Balladeer!

Yep I thought my view would be controversial!

@Buskalilly wrote:
I really don't need the traditional dungeon-item-boss, rinse and repeat eight times, castle that uses all your items, final boss thing ever again. It's been done, and it's been done phenomenally well, but by Twilight Princess it was clearly getting formulaic.

This is probably where I differ from most of you. I loved Twilight Princess. I didn't at all think it was formulaic: I thought it updated Ocarina for the modern (back then) era, and that's what I wanted. It was my favourite game ever for a good long stretch, between me replaying SM64 on the Wii U and finding it didn't hold up, and BotW coming out. It had the perfect collection of excellent dungeon design, excellent items, an overworld that felt just free enough that it didn't feel regimented (I'm happy with that illusion, that's why I disagree with Jas), and decent writing for the series (Midna did a lot of lifting there, although I come back to the Zora queen's ghost a lot). It was top. I don't mind the 3D games carrying on in a freer style, but I want my TP2/OoT3 fix from somewhere.

The one problem with this structure from my mind is that you do get items that are used in their dungeon and then all but forgotten about. My ideal is dungeons with big complex puzzles that use multiple items, and enemies that require the same: Ball-and-Chain to breach armour, revealing an eye that has to be yanked out by the Hookshot before the foe collects itself, for example. I remember Minish Cap being pretty close to that truth. If that means there have to be fewer dungeons then so be it: see my comment to GJones below.


@Buskalilly wrote:
At the start of this year, I played the original Legend of Zelda through in one sitting - no walkthroughs, no nothing, just me and Link.

It was phenomenal! I loved exploring the map, teasing out new areas, figuring out the obscure clues and following my hunches and being correct more than I wasn't. The difficult combat could be toned down, but the structure would be fantastic. Now that we live in an age when anyone who doesn't care to figure it out for themselves, or to chat with their pals, can go online, I want to see a complex, mysterious world that players need to investigate and experiment with.

Ugh, no. If I have to look at the Internet to find what I'm doing in a game then that game has failed. I hated my crack at the original LoZ for just this reason. Happily I don't think they'll ever get that obscure again.

@gjones wrote:
I reckon a 2D Zelda that's just one big dungeon. Basically, Hollow Knight but in the Zelda universe (so delivered in actual 2D like Zelda II. It would flip the Zelda formula on its head once again.

Interestingly that feels almost like what Skyward Sword did! Although it didn't join the three dungeons up, having Skyloft instead. I didn't like that at all personally. For me, in the most part, the dungeons are pace-changers in Zelda games: they shouldn't be all of it. That's why BotW, with its cracking overworld but not-too-great dungeons, is my GoaT. I think this is basically what Metroid does and I'm very happy with that franchise-side differentiation.

@The Cappuccino Kid wrote:
Although I'd seen yesterday that the only 3D Zelda that doesn't have a remaster yet is Breath of the Wild. Could it be possible that one of the 2D Zeldas gets remade into 3D? It would be an interesting experiment at least, as something I don't think they've tried before.

I'd be up for this! Just as long as it's not the original, natch. A remake of Adventure of Link or LttP into 3D (proper over-the-shoulder 3D, not Awakening-style 3D-in-a-2D-plane) could be stunning.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySun 18 Jul 2021 - 3:38

@Balladeer wrote:
I loved Twilight Princess.  I didn't at all think it was formulaic: I thought it updated Ocarina for the modern (back then) era, and that's what I wanted.
I loved it too, really adored it, but the feeling of remaking Ocarina was a failing for me.

Quote :
Ugh, no.  If I have to look at the Internet to find what I'm doing in a game then that game has failed.
I didn't look up anything. So really has the game failed, or have you failed?
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@Balladeer wrote:
A remake of the original into 3D
This is called Breath of the Wild
@Balladeer wrote:
A remake of Adventure of Link into 3D
This is called Dark Souls
@Balladeer wrote:
A remake of LttP into 3D
This is called Ocarina of Time.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySun 18 Jul 2021 - 10:34

Wow, OK everyone, we're all Zelda friends here*, we all just Zelda games to be good.

I'm trying to join in rather than just blast out my opinions, so this might be a bit of a mess, and sorry

  • I agree that Link's Awakening felt very linear - but I'd argue that was true at the time, and didn't quite get what the fuss was about. But it was a beautiful thing to look at, and several times more enjoyable than the original.
  • On that note, the first next thing I want still is for the Oracle games to be made in that engine - there's a lot more scope for exploration in those, and I think they're both more enjoyable.
  • The linearity comes back again - I miss the exploration of the first 2 NES Zeldas. There's a careful balance between not hand-holding and being too obscure, and after analysis of the debate of the 2 Bs: Possibly Zelda 1 is a little too obscure if I'm honest and not clouded by nostalgia. But I really do like going off on a different path and discovering something 20 hours in that I could have potentially picked up in the first 30 minutes, of my own volition.
  • I've been playing Outer Wilds, and this has so far done a great job of initially making me feel absolutely clueless, but I've gradually discovered more and more about what's going on - I've got a much better idea of what I should be trying to do, but I still feel like a clever person for working it out myself. A lot of the hints to solutions are based on discussions left behind by an ancient race; however at no point does someone say "you must go here and do this". The concession here is that your note system is filled in as you go along, so you are told what things are important, but not necessarily why - it's technically "cheating" that your on-board computer would do this, but it's just enough to keep things from feeling overwhelming.
  • Dark Souls is also like that (and I get the Zelda II comparison) although some things are a bit too obscure and it sometimes gets a free pass.
  • What about if the 2D was side-on, and it was like the non-mappy bits from Zelda II? I guess that's sort of been done by the Metroid series, and the Castlevania series I've heard. Would that be Zelda-y enough?
  • Probably not, and Zelda II should be made in 3D as was suggested. A large... very very empty... land.
  • Dungeons are generally my least favourite parts of Zelda games. Twilight Princess has come up, and actually that's the oddity in that each dungeon is brilliantly thought out and feels unique. But e.g. Link to the Past's dungeons are a tad disappointing considering the groundbreaking rest of the game.
  • I'm not opposed to some gear-gating though, even though I'd prefer a wider scope for exploration. it's always exciting seeing a mystical looking door, or a gap that's a bit too wide, and knowing that you're not allowed to get to that bit yet, so it must be important/exciting.



*Except you. You know who you are... DAMN YOU!
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Balladeer
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySun 18 Jul 2021 - 17:24

@Buskalilly wrote:
Quote :
Ugh, no.  If I have to look at the Internet to find what I'm doing in a game then that game has failed.
I didn't look up anything. So really has the game failed, or have you failed?
In the case of the original LoZ?  Definitely the game.

@Buskalilly wrote:
@Balladeer wrote:
A remake of the original into 3D
This is called Breath of the Wild
My comment above incidentally is why I don't buy this viewpoint at all.  BotW is free-roaming, but it's much less obtuse and better sign-posted than the original - as Jim says.

@Buskalilly wrote:
@Balladeer wrote:
A remake of Adventure of Link into 3D
This is called Dark Souls
@Balladeer wrote:
A remake of LttP into 3D
This is called Ocarina of Time.
Sounds great, let's have 'proper' ones then!  (Incidentally the difference in signposting between LoZ and BotW feels similar to the difference in signposting between LttP and OoT.)

@Jimbob wrote:

  • Dungeons are generally my least favourite parts of Zelda games. Twilight Princess has come up, and actually that's the oddity in that each dungeon is brilliantly thought out and feels unique. But e.g. Link to the Past's dungeons are a tad disappointing considering the groundbreaking rest of the game.
  • I'm not opposed to some gear-gating though, even though I'd prefer a wider scope for exploration. it's always exciting seeing a mystical looking door, or a gap that's a bit too wide, and knowing that you're not allowed to get to that bit yet, so it must be important/exciting.

Yep, absolutely agreed with both of these.  2D Zelda dungeons have never been all that great to my mind, with Minish Cap being the exception.  Heck, even ALBW, which I love, had kinda forgettable dungeons with an iffy difficulty curve - the latter bit being a direct result of the open-ended nature of the game.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySun 18 Jul 2021 - 19:50

Well, I'm happy about that! I do actually realise I missed my slightly-but-not-entirely-jokey suggestion off, and all good will may end
Asking for trouble:
 
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptySun 18 Jul 2021 - 20:37

@Jimbob wrote:
Wow, OK everyone, we're all Zelda friends here*, we all just Zelda games to be good.

[*]Dungeons are generally my least favourite parts of Zelda games. Twilight Princess has come up, and actually that's the oddity in that each dungeon is brilliantly thought out and feels unique. But e.g. Link to the Past's dungeons are a tad disappointing considering the groundbreaking rest of the game.

*Except you. You know who you are... DAMN YOU!

Wave

This is what makes Zelda, Zelda to me. Going to the dungeon, finding the item to solve it and taking on the boss at the end, maybe just change it up though with the whole can finish the game without these items but easier if you have them.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyMon 19 Jul 2021 - 19:16

You probably didn't intend it to be this way mas but that seems like a suggestion knowing most players would collect the items anyway so you get the style of game you prefer.  Laughing


@Jimbob wrote:
Well, I'm happy about that! I do actually realise I missed my slightly-but-not-entirely-jokey suggestion off, and all good will may end
Asking for trouble:
 

YES! This would be another neat way to solve the item/linear problem because every run would be different BUT...............we do already have Cadence of Hyrule which I think is criminally underrated by most Nintendo fans. I've finally got around to playing the Symphony of the mask dlc and while it's much harder than the main game it's reignited my love for CoH.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyMon 19 Jul 2021 - 19:41

They likely would but gives players choice if they want to go to X first instead of the linear order, like which I've got in Skyward Sword yet so nice to have a dungeon and characters.

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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyMon 19 Jul 2021 - 20:34

Oh I got what you were going for I just don't think it sounds like a fair compromise plus Nintendo have been down that road before which is why my final point in my first post was about giving us something we truly don't expect.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyMon 19 Jul 2021 - 21:46

@Jimbob wrote:
Asking for trouble:
 

YOU STEAMING ARSE DAMN YOU!

@masofdas wrote:
This is what makes Zelda, Zelda to me. Going to the dungeon, finding the item to solve it and taking on the boss at the end, maybe just change it up though with the whole can finish the game without these items but easier if you have them.

Your stance on BotW makes a lot more sense when viewed in this light.
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyMon 19 Jul 2021 - 22:26

Do we really need to be encouraging mas to mention his opinion again on BotW? Laughing
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PostSubject: Re: What's Next? (for... Smash Bros.)   What's Next?  (for... Smash Bros.) - Page 4 EmptyTue 20 Jul 2021 - 12:17

Also we're talking 2D Zelda like BotW might not even come into question of that and maybe Nintendo goes in two different directions with the Zelda series, just with Wind Waker being my favourite game of all time I personally more of that in 3D as well as 2D.

Also who knows we could end up with multiple types of Zelda like Mario you got 2D, 3D Exploring and 3D Level based.

Edit
I'm yet to play myself but to see Death's Door a Zelda inspired (see mentions of LttP mostly) as highest game of the year at moment, kinda shows we can get a good traditional 2D Zelda.
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