A Switch in Time (General Switch Chat II)

The difference Balla with these then the trophies you are now seeing with Ni No Kuni, is they will mean something hopefully and surely that's a good thing.

JayMoyles wrote:

Balladeer wrote:

Crumpy Andy wrote:

Definitely up for an achievement system anyway, anything to push me on to go the extra mile/up the difficulty is a good thing for me.

This is my big bugbear with achievements, albeit it comes from a place of relative ignorance since I'm only familiar with the kinds on e.g. Newgrounds before it went tripe.  If a game is fun enough you should do this anyway.  You shouldn't need the pointless lure of pointless points.  If you're - wait, that's not fair - if I'm being made to do something for the lure of an increased gamerscore or what have you, I probably wouldn't be doing it otherwise, meaning I probably wouldn't be enjoying it otherwise, meaning I'm probably not actually enjoying it now.

I think the simple answer to this, as blunt as it sounds, is just don't bother with them. I've plenty of games with half finished trophy lists purely because I felt no desire to go above and beyond. But for the games that I do fancy going through again or finishing 100%, a trophy or achievement is only an added bonus. It's probably tempted me to go back to games where I was on the fence about doing so, and more often than not I was glad I did.

Yup, this is what I do on ps4 even with something like Dark Souls 3 a game I've played for 100's of hours but not bothered to go for every trophy because the remaining ones just don't sound like they'd be fun to go after (They are various collectables) & I don't feel like I've missed out on seeing all the game has to offer either.

Their biggest issue (trophies/achievements) is they can force you to play in a very methodical way and for a game that just doesn't seem right to me.

One thing I do like about them even if I'm not a trophy whore but when I've had multiple systems that can play the same game, one for the reason I've gone for multi-format title on PlayStation is due to trophies as I like being in that ecosystem.

I love the idea of the Switch and out of the list of games which is nearly a 100 strong, 30 odd I've got my eye on. Some like Sonic Mania will be bought on Switch as I now play Sonic games on Nintendo systems but something like Dragon Quest XI that I'm still more likely to get on PS4.

If we were to get medals and from day one, I could come invested in them especially if rewarded like with the mobile games that I can use the medals for stuff. I would really consider getting DQXI on Switch knowing even if only get 25% of the medals, it might be enough to get something else for free.

I'd want Nintendo to think very carefully before implementing any sort of trophy based financial reward system.

I'm happy with the approach Bloodborne took; plat the game, get a UI Skin for your PS dashboard. That rewards those who are skilled and dedicated, in the same way as 100%-ing an old PSX or N64 game would often generate a special menu screen or whatever for players. It's a nice little gift, it's not something you can buy, just a treat. I also don't really mind games that tie in-game unlocks to certain trophies.

But the moment a company says, oh hey, plat or get X% of trophies for this game (or games) and you can get X% off of the price of this, is the moment you financially discriminate against gamers who can't attain that trophy percentage threshold.

I'm talking physically cannot, and will not, ever be able to. There are disabled people who play games too, and easy mode can be a god send for some such people. Obviously, not every game is accessible for everyone, and I'm not saying every game must be - just because there are blind people, doesn't mean I think films should screen with mandatory visual descriptions - but lets take Mario Kart a second here.

Mario Kart, a game anyone who can pick up a controller can enjoy, but not everyone can complete. I imagine there are a lot of either very young, or psycho-somatically challenged gamers who couldn't beat 150cc, let alone 200cc or mirror mode. Well, what if to reach the discount threshold you had to beat those modes? As a publisher, Nintendo's basically saying - yeah you have to pay more because you suck. Except they only suck at MK in so far as a paraplegic sucks at walking.

Something like Madden would be no different, with a certain subsection of gamers only able to enjoy the game on really low difficulty settings - perhaps even using the limited control scheme. But I'm guessing (like PES) there are plenty of trophies for Madden which dictate a certain difficulty setting or control scheme be used. Ordinarily, that's fine, a virtual trophy cabinet doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, but if there are, essentially, financial penalties for being unable to trophy shit then that's just not on.

I know I've just created a fictional model (I have no idea how the UBI system works), but the I think the central point stands regardless. Give players financial rewards for "being good at games" and, whether a publisher likes it or not, they are effectively saying to a certain subsection of gamers that "you have to pay more because you're incapable."

Fuck off

Didn't know you played a Japanese PS2 Muss

I get what your saying but that's how it works on the mobile games so far though and to me that's what Iwata meant about rewarding gamers for playing thier games (platinum medals) and buying thier games (gold medals).

Yeah, and again, without knowing how a mobile reward system works, I'm going to make the assumption that it's a shit way of dealing with things.

I mean, the mobile submarket is a sector of the videogame industry that literally refers to its most vulnerable, and therefore most "valued", customers as whales.

I thought I seen you on Miitomo, Muss.

masofdas wrote:

I thought I seen you on Miitomo, Muss.

...and?

For what it's worth I totally agree with Muss' point about overdoing git gud-ism in games. That's what puts a lot of people of games to this day. Anyone can sit and watch a television programme or a film, it never says "you're too shit to see the final episode." It's a complex issue with lots of factors on each side, but being more exclusive and demanding definitely isn't the answer.

Muss wrote:

I know I've just created a fictional model (I have no idea how the UBI system works

Yeah, Ubi's system is more akin to your completion bonuses from the N64/GC era where you'd get an extra cutscene or menu screen for doing well. Ubi's system will chuck points at you, give you a couple of options of rewards and that's about it. The rewards are typically stuff like "play with the robes from Assassin's Creed in Assassin's Creed II" or "unlock this car that's not quite as good as the best car you earn normally through the game". Harmless stuff, at heart.

Well I was pointing out that's how medals have been handheld by Nintendo so far with Miitomo, a "game" which I thought Muss had used to understand on what I think it will be and how it will be implemented.

As that's how I took rewarding gamers, with things like what's on My Nintendo at the moment but like a Zelda theme for Switch UI.

Which isn't dissimilar to UPlay system.

Drunkalilly wrote:

For what it's worth I totally agree with Muss' point about overdoing git gud-ism in games. That's what puts a lot of people of games to this day. Anyone can sit and watch a television programme or a film, it never says "you're too shit to see the final episode." It's a complex issue with lots of factors on each side, but being more exclusive and demanding definitely isn't the answer.

Absolutely agree with this. I totally understand that mechanical challenge is an important factor in games, and that game devs have a certain artistic vision. But as a kid I loved having a level select or invulnerability cheat code to hand. Those codes made utter bollocks like, Star Wars the Phantom Menace, and Army Men 2: Sarge's Heroes, enjoyable, and equally allowed me to access parts of Hogs of War (an already great game) that I otherwise couldn't have.

The death of cheat codes is probably one of the most under mourned deaths to occur in the evolution of console games. It's one of the reasons I sometimes preference a PC version over the Console, because the PC will either have a console command (cheat codes), or I can mod a file here and there to change things.

As for Miitomo, I vaguely recall it gave me coins when I did stuff, but never enough coinage to buy items that looked cool without me using real money  Legendary Transformers thread though

Really, I manged to get enough medals to Zelda Picross and I think lot of us did get it without paying anything in Miitomo. I do think that's not what we should be getting though with rewards as a exclusive game for being good or playing a lot, isn't it great but I was thinking themes, avatars, stuff for a Mii which isn't a huge deal but could be enough for me to play Dragon Quest XI on Switch and not PS4.

...I think I possibly disagree. Because the alternative to using skill to unlock stuff, these days, is paying a microtransaction. I'd rather know I'm too crap to unlock something, than know I'll never have it because I refuse to kowtow to publisher greed.

That's why you give things like themes Balla, nothing really important but still cool.

Kingdom Hearts II.8HD I'm currently playing has that reward system.

Muss wrote:

The death of cheat codes is probably one of the most under mourned deaths to occur in the evolution of console games.

+++++++++++++++++++

Balladeer wrote:

...I think I possibly disagree.  Because the alternative to using skill to unlock stuff, these days, is paying a microtransaction.  I'd rather know I'm too crap to unlock something, than know I'll never have it because I refuse to kowtow to publisher greed.

Don't fall into their trap of thinking you have to choose between the two. I'm no fan of pay-to-win, but that doesn't automatically mean every game should hide story elements behind unfair difficulty.
Anyway, Muss and I were specifically talking about financial rewards not being tied to gameplay achievements, which it doesn't seem as though Ubi or Ninty are doing yet.

OrangeRakoon wrote:

Muss wrote:

The death of cheat codes is probably one of the most under mourned deaths to occur in the evolution of console games.

+++++++++++++++++++

This along with goofy unlockables. Remember PES with ostriches? Or

Great article on the Switch by Rich Stanton.

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/01/25/dont-judge-switch-by-the-stagnant-opposition

OrangeRakoon wrote:

Muss wrote:

The death of cheat codes is probably one of the most under mourned deaths to occur in the evolution of console games.

+++++++++++++++++++

Weren't cheat codes basically introduced to keep your game's name in the magazines? Once it had been previewed to death and reviewed, it may or may not have ended up in the vault... so publishing the cheat codes might have meant an extra article in mags.

Have to admit to missing the more random ones, like NBA Jam teams (couldn't you play as Bill Clinton in one of them?) but I really tired of invincibility, infinite lives, the like.

Zero wrote:

Have to admit to missing the more random ones, like NBA Jam teams (couldn't you play as Bill Clinton in one of them?) but I really tired of invincibility, infinite lives, the like.

Aye Bill Clinton was in the SNES game as were a whole host of other folk.

http://uk.complex.com/pop-culture/2014/04/a-history-of-secret-characters-nba-jam/billclinton

---

I now want an NBA Jam game for Switch but that'd be down to EA.

The_Jaster wrote:

Great article on the Switch by Rich Stanton.

http://www.kotaku.co.uk/2017/01/25/dont-judge-switch-by-the-stagnant-opposition

Yeah, good crack. Really well done piece. I'm avoiding so much of the games media at the moment because the Switch chat is just tedious. Nobody can really predict the future, or know Nintendo's plans. And even if you are 100% sure they aren't going about this the most profitable way- so what? You're not on their board, you're not a shareholder!

The machine looks fun, the games look good and I'm excited to see what other games they're working on. Is a day one purchase foolish? Probably. Am I going to love it to bits anyway? Of course!

Drunkalilly wrote:

Is a day one purchase foolish? Probably. Am I going to love it to bits anyway? Of course!

Agreed on both of those. In terms of a variety of games... it's not the first time we've been in that situation; but Breath of the Wild is going to count as several games. It's been fine to stick with one "big'n" before (SNES - Super Mario World, N64 - Super Mario 64, Wii - Twilight Princess).

And I've got one coming now! Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nice one, Jim! Where did you find it?

The Wii also had Wii Sports, Jim that's why it was a in to get for like 2 years not because of Zelda.

If Nintendo has indeed resisted an achievements system a third generation running with Switch I'll continue to applaud them. No need for yet another addiction-enabling metasystem attached to all Switch games...

As for the Switch itself, I think Nintendo's doing the right thing to ensure it has a successful launch out the gate. Reminds me of DS, actually. I think the Switch, right now, is being aimed at long-term gamers and enthusiasts - people who grew up with 8 and 16 bit Nintendo handhelds and/or consoles. It'll also appeal to modern Nintendo fans, but there are less of them, and the older enthusiasts are the people who picked up a DS and Wii and made them successful out of the gate before their massmarket appeal was truly gauged.

Signs that indicate the above:

-Online service solely focuses on 8 and 16 bit games. Who is this for?
-Nintendo went to Konami and asked them to revive a 33 year old franchise.
-Third parties are focusing on game styles and genres that appeal to long-time players: Switch is getting Street Fighter 2, not 5, Puyo Puyo Tetris is a puzzle game, I Am Setsuna is a modern-retro JRPG.
-Zelda: Breath of the Wild is a return to the series' 8-bit roots in terms of its approach to genre.
-Mario Kart 8 shortly after launch, featuring the return of the 25-year old cape feather.
-Marketing paints the picture of an aspirational product

The question is how long until Nintendo and third parties put out software that'll broaden Switch's appeal, but for now they are certainly doubling down on long-time players to make sure it gets momentum out the gate. It's also good that the sort of people who are buying a Switch on launch day are going to be people who buy a lot of software - it's better than Nintendo has these users instead of, say, the 2DS audience who only buys a couple of games lifetime.

Chris Kohler wrote a good piece for Wired about how Nintendo's aiming at enthusiasts, he stated that 1-2-Switch being a paid, £39.99 game is exactly the point - they want to set an expectation that content won't be low-value: https://www.wired.com/2017/01/nintendo-switch-analysis/.