| The Xbox One | |
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+21Axis1500 Xelviar ZeroJones masofdas fronkhead The_Jaster Admin Buskalilly Silver light beemoh NintenDUCK Athrun888 Balladeer shanks Dusty Knackers oldschool The Cappuccino Kid Crumpy Andy Treesmurf Rum JayMoyles 25 posters |
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beemoh Koopaling
Posts : 2007 Points : 2050 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Writing and arithmetic
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Wed 22 May 2013 - 19:04 | |
| - Balladeer wrote:
- Thanks beemoh! (Analogy tied my head in knots a bit, but I think I'm with you.) So essentially, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the size of the RAM corresponds to the size of a single Wind Waker island, or other continuous and quickly accessible environment, with loading going on as you sail from one to another. I know there are different types of RAM and all that, but is that the gist?
More or less. It's a bit more complex than that, but it boils down to what you use the RAM for- everything that happens in a game has to go through the RAM. I used land mass in that analogy, but it's also true of graphics (For instance, types of car in GTA, more memory means more different cars on-screen) or objects (More memory means more cars generally) or features (More memory meansyou can have Skype as well- this is why you have to leave your game to use Wii U Video Chat). What you have in-game is then a trade off between what you use your memory for- in a pedestrianised area you could have fewer cars, but spend that memory on more human NPCs- or vice versa on the motorway. |
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JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15889 Points : 15055 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Wed 22 May 2013 - 19:52 | |
| So am I right in using my RTS analogy of having more units on screen at a time? |
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Silver light Ing Warrior
Posts : 343 Points : 351 Join date : 2013-01-16
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Wed 22 May 2013 - 20:03 | |
| - Forced online activation for all games - Focused on TV, services and other random shit rather than games - Most of said stuff isn't even going to be avalible or revelent here - Always-Kinect - No backwards compat - Need to connect to the internet at least once every 24h - Anti-used fees (reported to be full price...stupid even if it's not silly pricing like current XBL. Which it no doubt will be)
Amongst other things...it's like MS decided to look at every single next-gen rumour i hate and then make a console making reality of all of them. It's quite telling about the state of the industry now that i'm seemingly going to be picking my next-gen console on which one pisses me off the least than actually attracts me the most. |
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beemoh Koopaling
Posts : 2007 Points : 2050 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Writing and arithmetic
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Wed 22 May 2013 - 20:44 | |
| - JayMoyles wrote:
- So am I right in using my RTS analogy of having more units on screen at a time?
You're not incorrect. |
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Buskalilly Galactic Nova
Posts : 15041 Points : 15219 Join date : 2013-02-25 Age : 34 Location : Nagano
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Wed 22 May 2013 - 21:16 | |
| Well I worked all night and a good chunk of today, so I'm late to this party. Here's what I would have been saying as the discussion went on. I heard it'll be called the Xbox 1080 because they heard Nintendo was working on a snowboarding game and wanted to spite them. Okay, it does look like a vcr. Ha, Xbox one, that's dumb. Okay, where's the games? You can use the Wii u too turn the tv on too, just saying. Kinnect would be cool if it replied in KITTs voice.Then I would have answered that ram question so elegantly and succinctly with a metaphor so perfect angels would weep. - beemoh wrote:
You're not incorrect. Ooh, I think you might need this, Jay |
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JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15889 Points : 15055 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Wed 22 May 2013 - 21:19 | |
| - beemoh wrote:
- JayMoyles wrote:
- So am I right in using my RTS analogy of having more units on screen at a time?
You're not incorrect. Nah, I figured there was something off with what I said anyway. When it comes to specs and whatnot I'm pretty clueless. |
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JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15889 Points : 15055 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Thu 23 May 2013 - 1:28 | |
| Oh dear.
Makes me wonder if someone's playing online without a headset, can someone shout out "XBOX OFF" and disconnect all those headsetless people? |
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beemoh Koopaling
Posts : 2007 Points : 2050 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Writing and arithmetic
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Thu 23 May 2013 - 13:08 | |
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg2hepCGIGU
Needs the full scene really, but it'll do for reminding people of it if they've seen it. |
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Athrun888 Sheegoth
Posts : 3618 Points : 3665 Join date : 2013-01-26 Location : Holiday Bunker
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Thu 23 May 2013 - 16:37 | |
| Okay, I finally decided to suffer through ten or so minutes of the conference to see what was up, and after that time I switched off because I couldn't take the pontificating any more. What I don't get though was why they were exclaiming so much over being able to switch between telivision and games so much, I've been doing that ever since I've had a game console. Perhaps they are simply unaware that you can change things with the AV button on a remote. And then there was the swiping over different hub menus part. I really don't see how that is supposed to be more convenient than mildly twitching my thumb to achieve the exact same result on my current systems. Okay, I'm done whining about the system now. |
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NintenDUCK Vote Thread
Posts : 938 Points : 957 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 27 Location : The floor.
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Thu 23 May 2013 - 18:04 | |
| ok so apparently this thing is going to Japan after all, why? Because its an "important market". An important market that's barely big enough for the 'Bigger Two'... Poor microsoft... |
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Silver light Ing Warrior
Posts : 343 Points : 351 Join date : 2013-01-16
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Thu 23 May 2013 - 19:42 | |
| Not just that, but on current evidence it'd not do well there anyway. Kinect is even less cared about there than here iirc and the preowned market is even bigger (due to Jap media stuff seemingly generally being silly expensive, iirc). |
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Admin Ice Climber
Posts : 3441 Points : 3000 Join date : 2008-08-19 Age : 11
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Thu 23 May 2013 - 22:34 | |
| Shameful joy it may be, but I'm loving the general reception of the Xbox One online at the moment. It's stopped everyone moaning about the Wii U!
/Fanboy
I'll be genning up on everything propely over the weekend, but for now I've just been snatching bits of information here and there. |
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The_Jaster Din
Posts : 11965 Points : 12057 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 40 Location : Underground Corpse Pile.
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Fri 24 May 2013 - 0:57 | |
| I really dont like the look of it at all (it is early days though) the biggest slap in the face for me is devs won't be able to self publish on it so this effectively means some indies won't be able to work on it, which js a real shame XBLA was the most intriguing thngs about the 360 for me.
Here is some reactions from indie devs: http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/23/indie-developers-abandon-xbox-one-as-xbox-live-arcade-axed-3805488/
Oh while we're posting videos I like how this guy somes up the reveal (Epilepsy warning!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiBBqwwdpe8 |
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fronkhead Disciple of Scullion
Posts : 1616 Points : 1694 Join date : 2013-01-18
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Fri 24 May 2013 - 15:26 | |
| Ah yes, Beemoh's explained it well.
I don't think it'll be too much of an issue (the RAM gap), as I think a hefty chunk of that RAM will be dedicated to running the Xbox One and PS4 operating systems.
Wii U reserves 1GB of its RAM to games and 1GB of its RAM to the operating system (Miiverse, Browser, TVii, eShop, all can be accessed while playing a game because of this), though I think PS4 reserves 6GB of RAM to its games.
Given Wii U is probably best built for specialised games (plenty of indie content headed its way too), it shouldn't be an issue though it might make porting those big budget, AAA games a struggle. But if Xbox 360 and PS3 stay around longer it'll be fine.
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As for Xbox one, I was impressed with what I saw in the first thirty minutes of the unveiling (the operating system being able to instantly switch between tasks is really, really cool), but everything else was handled badly. They didn't appeal to a global audience (Japanese gamers were watching the event!), neither to all kinds of press coverage.
Apparently the event itself was made on the sole purpose that they didn't want the hardware leaked before E3 with everything acting as filler inbetween, so hopefully things will be looking up in a couple of weeks' time.
Most disappointing part of things is that it's closed off to developers -- given how Windows 8's App Store, Windows RT and Windows Phone work, I was hoping this next Xbox would be opened up to developers to make apps for, which would be really neat. Microsoft have essentially left the door open for Apple's Next Generation Apple TV to take centre stage by not lowering barriers to entry for developers.
Am glad Microsoft are still committed to Japan though. |
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beemoh Koopaling
Posts : 2007 Points : 2050 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Writing and arithmetic
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Fri 24 May 2013 - 16:41 | |
| One big mistake they made with the reveal was not mentioning that it wasn't strictly a games event.
If, shortly after they showed everyone the box they said something like "This is about the hardware's features- we're not going to show you that many games" they would have got away with a lot more. They could have made some joke about how showing you a load of games you couldn't play until E3 would be really mean or something.
The lack of backwards compatibility is a shame, too- BC probably isn't a reason I 'would' by a XB One, but it's now one less reason why I 'wouldn't' buy a PS4. |
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JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15889 Points : 15055 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Fri 24 May 2013 - 16:51 | |
| - The_Jaster wrote:
- I really dont like the look of it at all (it is early days though) the biggest slap in the face for me is devs won't be able to self publish on it so this effectively means some indies won't be able to work on it, which js a real shame XBLA was the most intriguing thngs about the 360 for me.
Surprising, considering there was a dedicated Indie section on their marketplace. This really is shaping up to be a shambolic launch from Xbox. Compare it to PS4 where there was some grumbling about the share button on the controller - this is pretty bad. Also, the video you linked as well... |
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JayMoyles Galactic Nova
Posts : 15889 Points : 15055 Join date : 2013-01-21 Age : 31 Location : The Shibuya River
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Sat 25 May 2013 - 16:40 | |
| Very comprehensive list of links backing up a lot of claims about the Xbox One I found on Reddit. Warning, wall of text in spoiler box. - Spoiler:
Sony is now the old Microsoft, and Microsoft the old Sony: http://www.gametrailers.com/full-episodes/w5i2js/bonus-round-microsoft-s-next-move
If you go to 10:42 in the above link, Andy McNamara (Editor-in-Chief of Game Informer) Talks about a movement in the gaming industry. How Indie devs are pissed at Microsoft, and how Sony is really embracing them.
At 11:38 Jeff Gerstmann (Famous Game reviewer, and GiantBomb cast member) talks about Microsoft moving in the opposite direction with that stuff (Catering Developers) and how it's a flip of the last time around (He's talking about Sony having the better system, and treating developers better) That is something Microsoft use to do. He also talks about retail, and how publishers are taking sides, and how some don't like what Microsoft is doing (He's talking about Microsoft's used game policy for the XBone, and how that will fragment relationships, and some publishers don't agree with Microsoft's control) He talks about more console exclusives because of this, and this is the big one (He's hinting that hedoesn't agree with the way Microsoft is getting 3rd party exclusives, because of their DRM used game policy, and heres why…
Microsoft/Publishers to receive cut of Xbox One pre-owned sales at retail: http://www.mcvuk.com/news/read/publishers-to-receive-cut-of-xbox-one-pre-owned-sales-at-retail/0116137
It talks about Microsoft's Azure system in place for retail stores (That sells used games) who agree with a Microsoft contract to use the system. Microsoft/Publishers will take a chunk of each used game sold (That means your games will be worth far less, and will be sold at a higher price because of this control) It also proves Sony doesn't have this kind of system in place, and i'll prove it with the next link.
Sony never considered Always-Online DRM for PS4: http://www.gamespot.com/news/sony-rules-out-always-online-for-ps4-report-6408071
What is said in the article… . "Sony president of Worldwide Studios, Shuhei Yoshida, said that a constant Internet connection would not be required from users, given the differences in web services available across the globe.“Did we consider it? No, we didn’t consider it," said Yoshida. . "The main reason being that many countries don’t have robust Internet connections. It makes sense for people to have Internet connections to play online games, but for offline games there are many countries that we saw [that] do not really have robust Internet.” He says that because they believe in a way different philosophy than Microsoft does. It's mostly due of the locations they sell to, and don't have that Azure system in place to handle that kind of draconian system.
Sony catches Microsoft off guard, and got lucky doing so: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-spec-analysis-xbox-one
In terms of the GPU hardware, hard information was difficult to come by, but one of the engineers did let slip with a significant stat - 768 operations per clock. We know that both Xbox One and PlayStation 4 are based on Radeon GCN architecture and we also know that each compute unit is capable of 64 operations per clock. So, again through a process of extrapolation from the drip-feed of hard facts, the make-up of the One's GPU is confirmed - 12 compute units each capable of 64 ops/clock gives us the 768 total revealed by Microsoft and thus, by extension, the 1.2 teraflop graphics core. So that's another tick on the Durango leaked spec that has been transposed across to the final Xbox One architecture and the proof we need that PlayStation 4's 18 CU graphics core has 50 per cent more raw power than the GPU in the new Microsoft console. Now, bearing in mind that we fully expect PlayStation 4 and Xbox One to launch at similar price-points, how did this disparity come about?
The answer to that comes down to a specific gamble Sony made that Microsoft could not - the utilisation of a unified pool of GDDR5 memory. In the early days of PS4 development, only 2GB of this type of memory looked viable for a consumer-level device. As higher density modules became available, this was duly upgraded to 4GB. By the time of the reveal back in February, Sony had confidence that it could secure volume of 512MB modules and surprised everyone (even developers) by announcing that PS4 would ship with 8GB of unified GDDR5 RAM. The design of its surrounding architecture would not need to change throughout this process - one set of 16 GDDR5 chips would simply be swapped out for another. Microsoft never had the luxury of this moving target. With multimedia such a core focus for its hardware, it set out to support 8GB of RAM from day one (at the time giving it a huge advantage over the early PS4 target RAM spec) and with serious volume of next-gen DDR4 unattainable in the time window, it zeroed in on supporting DDR3 and doing whatever was necessary to make that work on a console. The result is a complex architecture - 32MB of ESRAM is added to the processor die, along with "data move engines" to courier information around the system as quickly as possible with bespoke encode/decode hardware to alleviate common bottlenecks. Bottom line: if you're wondering why Xbox One has a weaker GPU than PlayStation 4, it's because both platform holders have similar silicon budgets for the main processor - Sony has used the die-space for additional compute units and ROPs (32 vs. 16 in One), while Microsoft has budgeted for ESRAM and data move engines instead. From the Xbox perspective, it's just unfortunate for Microsoft that Sony's gamble paid off - right up until the wire, it was confident of shipping with twice the amount of RAM as PlayStation 4.
The added 4GB of GDDR5 RAM Sony put into the PS4 caught Microsoft off guard, because they went the cheaper more convoluted route.
Sony's PS4 GPU is over 50% more powerful: http://anandtech.com/show/6972/xbox-one-hardware-compared-to-playstation-4
"Sony gave the PS4 50% more raw shader performance, plain and simple (768 SPs @ 800MHz vs. 1152 SPs & 800MHz). Unlike last generation, you don't need to be some sort of Jedi to extract the PS4's potential here. The Xbox One and PS4 architectures are quite similar, Sony just has more hardware under the hood." . Microsoft's OS for the XBone likely takes up more memory than PS4.
Microsoft confirms: Xbox One OS uses 3GB RAM, 5GB RAM for games: http://gimmegimmegames.com/2013/05/microsoft-confirms-xbox-one-os-uses-3gb-ram-5gb-ram-for-games/
With the XBone running 3 OS systems simultaneously, it cuts into game resources. While Sony's OS usage is still a rumor, it's very likely that it only needing 1 GB is spot on.
http://ps4daily.com/2013/04/playstation-4-developers-7-gb-ram/
Xbox One uses more GPU power for all it's OS systems: http://kotaku.com/the-five-possible-states-of-xbox-one-games-are-strangel-509597078
"The game is loaded in memory and is fully running. The game has full access to the reserved system resources, which are six CPU cores, 90 percent of GPU processing power, and 5 GB of memory"
While the PS4 may use some of it's GPU power, it will be no where close to 10% of it like the XBone and it's 3 OSes. People puts 2&2 together after Microsoft's XBox One event after Microsoft was very vague on specs, on purpose: By using the limited available specs from the show, mathematics, and PC hardware that's already on the market. People were able to know the GPU power of the Xbox One, and found out how it underperforms. Microsoft realized this, and sent out the CLOUD based theory ASAP, and how it will boost Xbox One's tech up to 300X more than without. That's really unproven, and most think is very unreasonable. Seems like it's reactionary FUD to try and 1-Up Sony out of pure desperation, and it came out AFTER the truth got out about the Xbox One being underpowered compared to the PS4
Lending a friend your game? He will need to pay full price of the game: kotaku.com/you-will-be-able-to-trade-xbox-one-games-online-micros-509140825
"You'll have to pay a fee—and not just some sort of activation fee, but the actual price of that game—in order to use a game's code on a friend's account. Think of it like a new game, Harrison said." The Only way your friend doesn't have to buy the game (At full price) is if you are there signed into your account.
The Kinect is mandatory, and can’t be turned off: http://www.penny-arcade.com/report/article/the-kinect-is-mandatory-and-cant-be-turned-off-welcome-your-new-motion-sens
"Kinect does require to be connected to Xbox One in all cases, yes," he said .
Always on, always watching/listening, giving Microsoft feedback. That's very intrusive to our privacy, and in order for your system to work, Kinect needs to be working. Hopefully Microsoft's quality on Kinect is better than the 360 RRoD.
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Admin Ice Climber
Posts : 3441 Points : 3000 Join date : 2008-08-19 Age : 11
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Sat 25 May 2013 - 18:19 | |
| All those... features aren't making this console sound like very much fun at all, are they? Good read, Jay. |
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masofdas The Next Aonuma
Posts : 23997 Points : 24396 Join date : 2013-01-18 Age : 34 Location : VITA Island
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Sat 25 May 2013 - 18:30 | |
| Holding judgement to e3 and price but used games i putting me off all together. I can see pachter being right it selling for £99-149 with a 2 year contract which includes TV crap and xbox live for £25 a month for three years or something like that. |
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The_Jaster Din
Posts : 11965 Points : 12057 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 40 Location : Underground Corpse Pile.
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Sun 26 May 2013 - 18:21 | |
| When is Pachter ever right? |
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ZeroJones I'M SO LONELY
Posts : 10465 Points : 9425 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 44 Location : North Midlands, England
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Sun 26 May 2013 - 22:34 | |
| As a pundit, the best thing to do is make as many flashy predictions as you can so that you get the attention. I wonder how many of Mr. Pachter's predictions have come true? |
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beemoh Koopaling
Posts : 2007 Points : 2050 Join date : 2013-01-15 Age : 39 Location : Writing and arithmetic
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Sun 26 May 2013 - 23:23 | |
| - ZeroJones wrote:
- I wonder how many of Mr. Pachter's predictions have come true?
Sounds like a thread to me: PACHTERWATCH™. |
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Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26432 Points : 25267 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Mon 27 May 2013 - 7:29 | |
| Get Bill Oddie and that blonde on it, and you've got a hit! |
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fronkhead Disciple of Scullion
Posts : 1616 Points : 1694 Join date : 2013-01-18
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Tue 28 May 2013 - 23:50 | |
| Pachter's predictions are usually off, but his analysis is usually quite correct -- unfortunately he's here to advise investors based on short term/long term profitability, not tell us anything about the *quality* of say, Nintendo's products. Sadly most the gaming press seems to report on his words as if that were the case, though.
From this point of view, I think his urging of Nintendo to make Wii HD and release it in 2009/2010 was a good one. |
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Balladeer DIVINE LONELINESS
Posts : 26432 Points : 25267 Join date : 2013-01-16 Age : 35 Location : Admintown
| Subject: Re: The Xbox One Fri 7 Jun 2013 - 17:27 | |
| MS are trying really really hard to make themselves unpopular, aren't they?EDIT: And this is before I saw all the pre-owned "clarifications". EDITEDIT: For anyone who, like me, is hella confused about recent X1 announcements, this might help. |
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